Post by Admin on Jul 19, 2024 23:51:07 GMT
Understanding confusing sentences by AT Jones
The writings of AT Jones can be confusing, especially if a casual reader is not looking carefully. The light was given 136 years ago and compared to the light God gives us today, one can only say, we see things dimly. Is this a Scripture prophecy even?
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly;
So let’s try to unravel some confusion A.T. Jones wrote:
A.T. Jones “In order, therefore, to have the fruit of the Spirit to appear in the life, the Holy
Spirit Himself must be the root of the life. “
“If you have that Spirit, and as long as you have Him, you are sure of that
eternal inheritance. If you have not that Spirit, you have no surety at all of the
inheritance.”
“In other words, it represents the full and complete manifestation of the Holy
Spirit in all His characteristics,—in all phases of the diversities of His operations. What, then, are these seven characteristics of the Spirit of God?
ROB: What does A. T. Jones mean by writing the Holy Spirit using the pronoun “he” or “his”?
What does our SDA Church mean by using “he” anyway for the Father and the Son? Has anybody ever explained this, or do we assume things from traditions and precepts of men?
Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
This Greek word is only used twice here, once for the Holy Spirit and once for the Father. Nobody knows the shape or form of the Father, nor have we heard His voice, so why do we assume to understand what “he” means?
By the way nobody can define what “he” means without contrasting their definition with “her”? So if you make the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all “he” whatever that means, you have created an impossible Q question, that nobody can fathom.
What does Ellen White say of such mysteries? Silence is golden. And yet today such notions are required to enter the baptismal vows. How sad.
Now back to our studies of A. T. Jones :
First understand the Hebrew word “shadday” is masculine grammar case, “ruwach” is feminine grammar case, and “help-meet” is masculine grammar case. So the “Comforter” is also masculine grammar case.
Does this mean the pronouns refer to “gender differences in Elohiym power” ?
First we have to understand what “gender” means and how does GOD explain this?
Lu 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Notice Jesus is saying the genes to biologically procreate are switched off, so this is not all the gender differences refer to, although this is all the humans consider gender to be, on earth. I assume this, because nobody explains what they mean by “he” in the first place?
The Author’s humble hypothesis: “The differences in gender refer to personalities of loving and being loved. They refer to provider love and responder love and child like collective love”.
For more on this discovery of love see here
spiritualsprings.org/ss-845.htm
Also consider reading this entire poem granted to a 16 year old many years ago reveals some light on the subject of love:
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1569.htm
Notice this snippet of this poem:
Love is a river,
And to this young wife,
It flows feverishly through her life
Life is a river, a dam fed you some,
Clear was it's water,
Traditionally done,
Question: Who is the river? It doesn’t clearly say, we can assume, a simile of God. Notice the river of love flows though the wife.
Question: Who is the dam? A husband. Notice he blocks and stores the river of love and releases the love more controlled so they together enjoy it’s flow.
Question: If a wife is feminine and a husband masculine, what does this make the river of love?
Answer: it makes the love masculine. The water is stored and released by the husband, and together the flow is one stream of love.
( Notice the love can be written as “it” or “her” and “his” - all three pronouns are equally valid concerning the wife as a Comforter to the man.)
Another way to see this, is with providers and responders. You require both personalities of love to make a relationship happen.
Another way to view this idea, is you require boy atoms and girl atoms to share their electrons before a marriage bond happens.
Water itself is made of two masculine providers and one feminine responder, so in compound unity we have a single drop of love. Without this faith processing process the love would not be completed.
A battery is another example of provider power and receiver power with collective medium between, so the flow is a single flow of love.
Ellen White: “The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden.” {AA 52.1}
Why is A.T. Jones and the modern Church today speaking confusion, when Ellen White said the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery? What is this mystery? The fact Mrs White terms the Holy Spirit as a “medium” and an “agent”.
Other mysteries include the functional flow of love:
Why is the breast a “masculine grammar term” ?
Nobody knows, not even the Jews, not a single person can make a hypothesis: However the Lord showed the Author this idea:
Because the breast and it’s flow of milk comes first from providers providing and the responder responding later with the actual milk. So in this sense the breast is a provider, and it written in masculine gender case.
Just because the Holy Spirit is referenced as “he” or “his” does not make the Holy Spirit as “he”
whatever we assume this idea to mean? Silence is golden, so why is our church making deeper confusion of this theme within our fundamentals as a creed for baptism?
A.T.Jones: “in all phases of the diversities of His operations. What, then, are these seven characteristics of the Spirit of God?”
“ruwach of elohiym” is a reference to medium of God.
Mediums are not well understood by humans, so Ellen White said “silence is golden”.
“Mediums carry things” and in the process of carrying things, the things they carry change properties.
Light traveling from one media to another media is a good example of this medium affect, such as when light travels through air and into water, the light is bent or refracted. This is a medium affect.
Wind is a medium affect. Wind is the movement of air: meaning one media allows movement because of another media. Both media are the same in this case, except the media have differences in temperatures. So we say hot air moves and cold air moves, without explaining why they move relative to each other in the first place. This is why we say: Medium affects are difficult to explain and ‘Silence is golden’.
Some might say hot air is less dense? What does this mean? How does a fast moving air particle become less dense? Good luck finding a video to explain this easily? Another Q question.
Now Jeff Benner explains something in Hebrew writing and grammar use of pronouns in writing
He writes in a community setting with both boys and girls say in a playground, the reference goes to the boys, rather than referencing the girls. This is a masculine precedence over feminine is a grammar and cultural rule of Hebrew.
A. T. Jones: “If we can know how the Spirit was manifested in Christ, we shall know what are these
characteristics; for He was filled with all the fulness of God. Can we know this of Christ?—Read this: “And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest
upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.” (Isa. 11:2).
ROB: This is correct. The Grand Medium, carries the fullness of Jesus into supports of God. Hence the term “He” refers to Jesus carried by the medium into believers of His Name.
A. T. Jones: “In the manifestation of the fulness of the Spirit in the church, He divides to
every man severally as He will; for “to one is given by the Spirit the word of
wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit,” etc. (1 Cor. 12:8).
ROB: “Same idea as explained before.
A. T. Jones: “The Lord’s expressed desire, therefore, is, that He “may give to you,” and that
you may have, the Spirit of God,—the very Spirit that Jesus had, and the very
Spirit by whom the Scriptures were given. O, He desires that you may have—yes,
that you may be filled with—the Holy Spirit!
ROB: A. T. Jones writes we are filled with Jesus character and this is carried by the Holy Spirit.
A. T. Jones: “At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in
you” (John 14:20).
At what day?—The day the Helper would come; the day that He Himself, by
the Helper, would come.
For He said, “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you;” and, “At that
day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”
Rob: If the Greek word used here is the Hebrew word for help-meet, than the word in Hebrew is masculine grammar case. This is the same word used in Genesis 2 when the help-meet was given to Adam. Pronouns such as “He” do not refer to the personality of the being, as we assume by reading the verses, based on grammar and gender case of words. The help-meet brought to Adam, was masculine in grammar, but was not a “he” but a “she” was brought to Adam. How do we make sense of this ?
Ge 2:24 Shall a man “look at the ploughed home” of his “provider” and “responder” and cleave to his
“look at the ploughed head” and they shall be cardinally one flesh.
Consider these clues as Ancient Hebrew shows above.
A. T. Jones: “Do you know this? Do you know that He is in His Father, and you in Him, and
He in you? If you do not know it, why do you not?—There can be but one reason for any
one’s not knowing this; that is, he has not received the Helper, which is the Holy Spirit. For “by this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit” (1 John 4:13).
ROB: Notice the “He” is of the Father. Nice
A. T. Jones: “Then when He has promised that we “will know,” and has abundantly and
freely supplied the means by which we shall know, that “we abide in Him, and He
in us,” why should any one go a single hour without that blessed knowledge?
“You will know.” “By this we know.” Blessed, blessed knowledge! Thank the Lord!
“Ask, and it will be given to you.” “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 28, 1898
ROB: “Notice Jesus and the Father as compound unity because of faith. Jesus used the power from His Father via Faith in the Word. Love is therefore a community power based on faith.
The Opposer would have seen this function but through the exercise of free will, wanted to make Self and therefore Self-Love a supreme function of providing love. It such a concept existed, why does Jesus speak of two forms of love, and not three?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as (thyself) (God loves you).
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets
Notice Jeff Benner says the Hebrew word “thyself” means “like” it is a comparison word.
But The Lord Jesus states two principles of love and being loved, not three. Therefore self-love is NOT a Hebrew principle( in a sinless domain). In our Bible there are only two Hebrew words for love, the child like love is a collective function of the first two.
The Holy Spirit is a Grand Medium, and mediums carry powers in a media unto those receiving the powers. Light is carried in the air and water, but changing from one media to another, the light is refracted at the boundary. Why this occurs, is difficult to fathom, another Q question. Wind is also the movement of air, where the media carries the energy of air we feel as wind. Why and how this energy is carried is difficult to explain.
It seems our pioneers were happy to use terms easily and they felt no confusion in using such terms. Yet Mrs White “some things are mysteries” and “silence is golden”.
A. T. Jones: “The only reason that the church in any age has not witnesses in that age to the
end of the earth, is simply because she did not have the power to do it. That is
what she existed for; but she could not do it, because she did not have the power.
(1888mpm.org 21 )
Rob: The church is written in feminine grammar case, I feel because the church is a responder to the love of God.
A. T. Jones “And she did not have the power because she would not have the Holy Spirit come
upon her.
ROB: Jones writes this sentence is interesting. Is there such a sentence in the Bible?
Ho 4:19 The wind (ruwach - Holy Spirit) hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices.
Jerusalem like the Church is feminine in grammar, but how can the wind have wings? Notice the ruwach is feminine in grammar and the “her wings” is a reference to the grammar case. It is the only Bible reference to the word ruwach with the grammar case “her”.
However this reference is used by Ellen White numerous times as “her wings”.
A. T. Jones “And when the Holy Spirit does come upon us, making us witnesses, then He
also Himself is a witness with us.
We are to witness to Jesus Christ risen from the dead, and alive now, though
once dead.
A. T. Jones “We can do it because we know Him, the living Savior, with whom we live. We
can do it because He lives with us. We can do it because we know that He is in us,
and we in Him; and this we know by the Holy Spirit, which is given us. We can do
it because He has given us the power, in giving us the Holy Spirit.
ROB: Notice how A. T. Jones writes.
A. T. Jones “When the Holy Spirit has placed you in the responsible position of overseers of
the flock of God, how are you discharging your responsibility to Him who “has
made you overseers”? Do you constantly recognize, and live in the presence of, the fact that the Holy Spirit has made you overseers? Do you constantly recognize your responsibility to
the Holy Spirit? Do you constantly seek to discharge that responsibility under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit, and acceptably to Him?
Rob: Confused?
A. T. Jones “Very well, then, brethren, elders of the churches, as the word of God says that
“the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,” do you recognize that fact? Do you
constantly live and work in the presence of that solemn and thrice-blessed fact?
Do you pray in the Holy Spirit? Do you recognize the Holy Spirit in . . . oversee
the flock with eyes anointed with the Holy Spirit? Do you “feed the church of
God, which He has purchased with His own blood”—do you feed the church with
the Bread which came down from heaven, through the power and presence of the
Holy Spirit?
ROB: “Be careful with the reading of “pronouns”
A. T. Jones “Thus the book of Acts begins and ends with the mention of the Holy Spirit;
and all the way between the beginning and the end, the Holy Spirit is recognized
and received. He is constantly deferred to; He is ever and everywhere recognized
as being present as witness, counselor, and guide.
Rob: Confused? Is this idea of Jones correct?
Ac 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
ROB: No it is not correct. The Holy Spirit after 40 days is carrying the power of GOD....
Ac 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
ROB: So Jones is not correct in what he is saying.
A. T. Jones “Ask for the Spirit: by so doing, you ask according to His will. Then, having
asked, you know you have received, because He says so. Then thank Him, and
continue to thank Him, that you have received the Holy Spirit. How you may feel
has nothing to do with it. It is not how you feel; it is what He says.
Rob: Since love is a community generated power, and “He” refers to the Provider of that love, does not mean there is no responder to love.
A. T. Jones “THERE is a difference between “the gift of the Holy Spirit” and “the gifts of
the Holy Spirit;” between the gift of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is the gift of His Spirit bestowed by the Lord upon
those who believe and are baptized in His name.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are certain powers and operations imparted by the
Holy Spirit Himself to those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ROB: Confused? Does Ellen White write using sentences like this?
Apparently she does: once...
Ellen White: “One man cannot carry through any work and make it complete himself, unless no other worker is available; then the Holy Spirit supplies the deficiencies of the worker. But because a measure of success attends his labors, let him not suppose that it is his methods and capabilities which have done the work; for this idea will often bring defeat. Let not men flatter themselves and take to themselves the credit of doing wonderful things; for they are weak and feeble in doing even their best. The Holy Spirit is the worker, and if the human instrument is a close student of his Bible, seeking to know the light and to walk in it, thus learning daily of Jesus, the Holy Spirit will use him as a means of communicating the Word while the Holy Spirit Himself works the heart. {1NL 129.5}
All those who hold forth the Word of Life, whether they be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers, have a part to act in the work of the perfection of the saints, wherever they may be. They are all to work together harmoniously. {1NL 129.6} [Read Ephesians 4:12-16
ROB: What is the passage saying? Does it mean the Holy Spirit is a He?
A. T. Jones seems to think so?
I am not sure what to make of the passage? It seems to suggest the Holy Spirit as a function in some rare cases, can be provider of power to the human, assuming this context suggests this idea?
This does not mean the “he” means the Holy Spirit is a “he” is assumed by the modern times in our Church. What does the term “he” mean anyway, is not discussed or defined by our Church.
Can gender females be providers of love? Of course they can, also gender males can respond to love. The point is gender females are mostly responders of love and gender males are mostly providers of love. Remember what Ellen White said of the nature of the Holy Spirit, “silence is golden”?
A. T. Jones “Plainly enough, the gifts of the Holy Spirit can be manifested only in those
who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
All the gifts of the Spirit—wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles,
prophecy, teaching, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues, helps,
governments—belong in the church now.
The Lord longs to see all these gifts and powers manifested in the church now.
Many people, also, long to see all these gifts manifested in the church now: some,
indeed, desire this more out of curiosity, or to benefit themselves, than for
anything else; yet they do desire to see it.
But how can there be manifestations of the Spirit where there is not the Spirit?
How can the gifts of the Spirit be imparted, where the gift of the Spirit has not
been allowed to be bestowed? How can the gifts of the Holy Spirit be manifested
where the gift of the Holy Spirit has not been received?
A. T. Jones “The Holy Spirit is never poured out on companies, except as He is poured out
upon individuals in the companies.
The Spirit was poured out upon the whole company, more than once, as
recorded in the book of Acts; but this was only because He was poured out upon
each individual in the company. Each individual was ready to receive the Spirit;
and being poured in His fullness upon each individual in the company, in the
nature of the case He was poured out upon the whole company.
ROB: Question: When the Holy Spirit power was poured out in Acts, for example; was this just the power of the Holy Spirit only ?
Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
ROB: “Notice the men in this experience, did not speak of this power coming from the Holy Spirit alone, but from the Lord, and from Elohiym power. So sadly A. T. Jones is not stating things as nicely as he could.
A.T.Jones: “For the Holy Spirit is given, imparting His precious gifts, expressly “for the
equipping of the saints, . . . till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the
knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of
the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:12, 13).
A.T.Jones: “AND do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the
day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). When anything is sealed, it is made secure; and
God by His Holy Spirit is now sealing hearts for eternity. Will you let the Holy
Spirit do His work in you? Let him, let him! The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 20, 1898, p. 817.
ROB: Confusing?
A.T. Jones: “He also indicates what is the character of this unity: “As You, Father, are in Me,
and I in You, that they also may be one in Us;” “that they may be one, just as We
are one: I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one.” This
unity of the believers is the divine unity itself; for it is just “as” is the unity between
the divine Father and the divine Son.
ROB: So this might explain the “He”. Does the Church explain what “He” actually means?
A.T. Jones: “OF the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is
Mine and declare it to you” (John 16:14).
To declare a thing is to call special attention to it, to point out its attractions
and its value.
This is what the Holy Spirit does to us with the things of God. He takes the
things of God, and presents them to our view, makes them plain to our
understanding.
ROB: Notice the “He” is a reference to the community power of GOD, in this context.
==== OK dear readers ==========
Now let’s look at other themes and other ideas of this confusion:
Alonzo T Jones, The Medical Missionary, March 27, 1907: “And the Holy Spirit is a person. ....the Holy Spirit is referred to and spoken of by Christians as “it”. But the word “it” never applies to a person.
The Holy Spirit is a Person, eternally a divine Person. And he must be always recognized and spoken of as a Person, or he is not truly recognized or spoken of at all.”
ROB: This is confusing?
The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man, which is in him; even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {20MR 69.1}
Rob: Notice the message of Ellen White from GOD, also makes the “ruwach” come with a “he” whatever that means...
Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}
The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}
The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}
In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}
The work of the holy Spirit is immeasurably great. It is from this source that power and efficiency come to the worker for God; and the holy Spirit is the comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul. He who looks to Christ in simple, childlike faith, is made a partaker of the divine nature through the agency of the holy Spirit. When led by the Spirit of God, the Christian may know that he is made complete in him who is the head of all things. As Christ was glorified on the day of Pentecost, so will he again be glorified in the closing work of the gospel, when he shall prepare a people to stand the final test, in the closing conflict of the great controversy. The prophet describes the enemy’s plan of battle saying: {RH November 29, 1892, par. 3
ROB” So if the Holy Spirit brings Jesus to us, this is why we see the Holy Spirit as a “He”, the “he” refers to Christ and His power.
Pastor Charles Mills from his Facebook with His Vine Free SDA church only quotes pioneers and Ellen White, and does not write his own applications of his own faith, except once:-
Pastor Charles Mills: "God Identifies Who Is the Spirit of Prophecy: Ellen White was not the Spirit of Prophecy but was used By the Spirit of Prophecy to reveal God's Testimonies to
the Church as HIS mouthpiece, messenger and prophet !
ROB: Of the only personal words penned by Pastor Mills, he does not even write Ellen White as a prophetess. Are we afraid to witness to Jesus with His faith developing new words in us?
Now to show readers how messages from Ellen White given to by GOD show passages on the nature of the Holy Spirit...
Ellen White: “The words spoken by Christ of Jerusalem are, “Your house is left unto you desolate.” What anguish of soul did Jesus feel when all his appeals, his warnings and reproofs, were resisted! At the time he brought them home to the soul, impressions were made; but self-love, self-sufficiency, love of the world, came in and choked the good seed sown. Pride of heart prevented his hearers from humbling themselves before God, and confessing their sin in resisting his Holy Spirit, and reluctantly it left them. On the crest of Olivet, as he beheld the city, he wept over it, saying, “If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!” Here he paused; he was loth to utter the irrevocable sentence. O that Jerusalem would repent! When the fast westering sun should pass out of sight, her day of mercy would be ended. Jesus closed his sentence, “But now they are hid from thine eyes.” On another occasion he lamented the impenitence of the chosen city: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate...{RH December 23, 1890, Art. B, par. 12}
God keeps a reckoning with the nations.... In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full.... The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed—in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest. And so completely will men be deceived by him that they will declare that these calamities are the result of the desecration of the first day of the week. From the pulpits of the popular churches will be heard the statement that the world is being punished because Sunday is not honored as it should be.... {TMK 355.2}
ROB: “Is this a parallel message in Ellen White messages?
Ellen White: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” The Lord forbid that this scene should now be repeated in the experience of God’s professed people! “My Spirit,” he says, “shall not always strive with man.” The time will come when it must be said of the impenitent, “Ephraim is joined to his idols; let him alone.” {RH December 23, 1890, Art. B, par. 12
ROB: “Is this a parallel message in Ellen White messages?
Ellen White: “I have been shown that the time has come for more effective labor in the East. The necessity of organization and order is at last felt there. Ministers will not now be obliged to labor under such discouragements as before. The angel of mercy is hovering over the East. Said the angel: “Strengthen the things that remain. Proclaim the message to those who have not heard it.” There are some in the East who will be in danger of going to extremes when the Lord shall revive His work among them. They should remember that the Lord removed His work from them to the West to humble them, and to subdue an independent, rebellious spirit in them, and lead them to better prize the efforts of His faithful servants.
Rob: The word “hovering” is used only twice in Scripture to refer to the Spirit.
ROB: “Do angels have wings, and do they hover like a bird? Or is this the Holy Spirit functioning like an angel with her wings?
Ellen White: “Brethren, work with the Spirit of Christ, with the mind of Christ, to correct existing evils. The wrongdoer will have the sympathy of wrongdoers, but faithful shepherds of the flock must maintain an elevated standard, and yet teach that the Star of hope is still shining. Work on patiently, but rebuke sin firmly, giving it no sanction. The world is soon to be left by the angel of mercy, and the seven last plagues are to be poured out. Sin, shame, sorrow, and darkness are on every side.
And the messages of the Shadday, translated Almighty:-
A terrible conflict is before us. We are nearing the battle of the great day of God Almighty. That which has been held in control is to be let loose. The angel of mercy is folding her wings, preparing to step down from the throne and leave the world to the control of Satan.
ROB: “Is this a parallel message in Ellen White messages?
Who are standing as representatives of Jesus Christ? Who feels a burden for the souls who cannot receive the truth till it is brought to them? Our ministers are hovering over the churches, as though the angel of mercy was not making efforts to save souls. {PaM 99.3
ROB: Don’t you love the poetry similes that hide truth from doubters of the messages of GOD? As the Holy Spirit is a representative of Jesus Christ empowering us with “HIS” power, so our Pastors are representatives of Jesus Christ, empowering the sheep with “HIS” power. Does the reader catch the parallels?
So this “phrase” the “angel of mercy” is the function of the Holy Spirit.
Ellen White: “The angel of mercy had long pleaded for the impenitent city; but now she prepared to step down from the golden throne, while the words of irrevocable justice were spoken: “But now they are hid from thine eyes.
Now we have a problem, how can the Holy Spirit be referenced as a “he” and now also referenced as a “she” ? In the references as a “he” the Holy Spirit is a “provider of Jesus and his power to us” and in the reference of the Holy Spirit as a “she”, the Holy Spirit is a responder of love that comes from GOD.
Ellen White: “As the approach of the Roman armies was a sign to the disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, so may this apostasy be a sign to us that the limit of God’s forbearance is reached, that the measure of our nation’s iniquity is full, and that the angel of mercy is about to take her flight, never to return. The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress which prophets have described as the time of Jacob’s trouble. The cries of the faithful, persecuted ones ascend to heaven. And as the blood of Abel cried from the ground, there are voices also crying to God from martyrs’ graves, from the sepulchers of the sea, from mountain caverns, from convent vaults: “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” {5T 451.2}
ROB: Difficult to fathom, but we have clues to this puzzle
Jer 49:36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.
Da 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Zec 2:6 ¶ Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree
ROB: The Greek uses ordinary word for winds, not the pneumia, as the Hebrew word does with ruwach. Fuzzy translation, we miss much.
Ellen White: “Grace, like an angel of mercy, makes his voice heard sweet and clear, repeating the story of the cross, the matchless love of Jesus.61 {ML 334.5
ROB: Notice while the angel of mercy is written as “her wings” here is it suggested to be “his voice”.... is the reader confused?
Ellen White:"A terrible contest is before us. We are nearing the battle of the great day of God Almighty. That which has been held in control is to be let loose. The angel of mercy is folding its wings, preparing to step down from the golden throne and leave the world to the control of Satan, the king it has chosen, a murderer and a destroyer from the beginning. {TDG 308.2
ROB: Notice while the angel of mercy is written as “her wings” here is it suggested to be “it’s wings”.... is the reader confused?
Ellen White: “I saw that the angel of mercy was winging his way from R. I was shown that the rebellion started there. God marked the families engaged in this work, and they did not all make a thorough confession of their sins and put them away as they should have done. {PH104 1.2
The same applies to “it’s wings” a functional description of power.
Ellen White: “Do not become weary in your labor of love. The angel of mercy pauses not in his efforts till the last sinner has heard the message of grace. Tenderly and untiringly work for your little ones. Think of how young they are, how much they have to learn. Deal gently and lovingly with them. Consider how slow you have been to learn your lessons. Be calm, patient, and tender. By the cords of unselfish love bind them to you and to Christ. {20MR 277.1
ROB summary: The message of Ellen White from God writes the Holy Spirit as a “messenger of mercy” or “angel of mercy” with sometimes “her wings” “his way”, it’s wings and often as “his efforts”.
(1) This can be a medium affect, where the medium carries the Father’s power and the Son’s power, so the “He” refers to provider powers carried by the medium of God.
(2) This can also be in rare cases where the Shadday is functioning as a provider within the function of the Holy Spirit.
Since the function of the agent and medium, words Ellen White used are poorly understood by readers, she cautions us to remember “silence is golden” about these mysteries.
Now is this a major obstacle to understanding our salvation? Hmm? If the only sense of love we have coming from God is provider love so that we understand the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as a “he”, than our love and loving personalities are severely limited. And we will as a Church not be as one accord with fellowship love, nurture love, or the responding love that is expressed mostly by responders. We also miss the full understanding of love within the family of God. Shalom
The writings of AT Jones can be confusing, especially if a casual reader is not looking carefully. The light was given 136 years ago and compared to the light God gives us today, one can only say, we see things dimly. Is this a Scripture prophecy even?
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly;
So let’s try to unravel some confusion A.T. Jones wrote:
A.T. Jones “In order, therefore, to have the fruit of the Spirit to appear in the life, the Holy
Spirit Himself must be the root of the life. “
“If you have that Spirit, and as long as you have Him, you are sure of that
eternal inheritance. If you have not that Spirit, you have no surety at all of the
inheritance.”
“In other words, it represents the full and complete manifestation of the Holy
Spirit in all His characteristics,—in all phases of the diversities of His operations. What, then, are these seven characteristics of the Spirit of God?
ROB: What does A. T. Jones mean by writing the Holy Spirit using the pronoun “he” or “his”?
What does our SDA Church mean by using “he” anyway for the Father and the Son? Has anybody ever explained this, or do we assume things from traditions and precepts of men?
Lu 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
This Greek word is only used twice here, once for the Holy Spirit and once for the Father. Nobody knows the shape or form of the Father, nor have we heard His voice, so why do we assume to understand what “he” means?
By the way nobody can define what “he” means without contrasting their definition with “her”? So if you make the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all “he” whatever that means, you have created an impossible Q question, that nobody can fathom.
What does Ellen White say of such mysteries? Silence is golden. And yet today such notions are required to enter the baptismal vows. How sad.
Now back to our studies of A. T. Jones :
First understand the Hebrew word “shadday” is masculine grammar case, “ruwach” is feminine grammar case, and “help-meet” is masculine grammar case. So the “Comforter” is also masculine grammar case.
Does this mean the pronouns refer to “gender differences in Elohiym power” ?
First we have to understand what “gender” means and how does GOD explain this?
Lu 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Notice Jesus is saying the genes to biologically procreate are switched off, so this is not all the gender differences refer to, although this is all the humans consider gender to be, on earth. I assume this, because nobody explains what they mean by “he” in the first place?
The Author’s humble hypothesis: “The differences in gender refer to personalities of loving and being loved. They refer to provider love and responder love and child like collective love”.
For more on this discovery of love see here
spiritualsprings.org/ss-845.htm
Also consider reading this entire poem granted to a 16 year old many years ago reveals some light on the subject of love:
spiritualsprings.org/ss-1569.htm
Notice this snippet of this poem:
Love is a river,
And to this young wife,
It flows feverishly through her life
Life is a river, a dam fed you some,
Clear was it's water,
Traditionally done,
Question: Who is the river? It doesn’t clearly say, we can assume, a simile of God. Notice the river of love flows though the wife.
Question: Who is the dam? A husband. Notice he blocks and stores the river of love and releases the love more controlled so they together enjoy it’s flow.
Question: If a wife is feminine and a husband masculine, what does this make the river of love?
Answer: it makes the love masculine. The water is stored and released by the husband, and together the flow is one stream of love.
( Notice the love can be written as “it” or “her” and “his” - all three pronouns are equally valid concerning the wife as a Comforter to the man.)
Another way to see this, is with providers and responders. You require both personalities of love to make a relationship happen.
Another way to view this idea, is you require boy atoms and girl atoms to share their electrons before a marriage bond happens.
Water itself is made of two masculine providers and one feminine responder, so in compound unity we have a single drop of love. Without this faith processing process the love would not be completed.
A battery is another example of provider power and receiver power with collective medium between, so the flow is a single flow of love.
Ellen White: “The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden.” {AA 52.1}
Why is A.T. Jones and the modern Church today speaking confusion, when Ellen White said the nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery? What is this mystery? The fact Mrs White terms the Holy Spirit as a “medium” and an “agent”.
Other mysteries include the functional flow of love:
Why is the breast a “masculine grammar term” ?
Nobody knows, not even the Jews, not a single person can make a hypothesis: However the Lord showed the Author this idea:
Because the breast and it’s flow of milk comes first from providers providing and the responder responding later with the actual milk. So in this sense the breast is a provider, and it written in masculine gender case.
Just because the Holy Spirit is referenced as “he” or “his” does not make the Holy Spirit as “he”
whatever we assume this idea to mean? Silence is golden, so why is our church making deeper confusion of this theme within our fundamentals as a creed for baptism?
A.T.Jones: “in all phases of the diversities of His operations. What, then, are these seven characteristics of the Spirit of God?”
“ruwach of elohiym” is a reference to medium of God.
Mediums are not well understood by humans, so Ellen White said “silence is golden”.
“Mediums carry things” and in the process of carrying things, the things they carry change properties.
Light traveling from one media to another media is a good example of this medium affect, such as when light travels through air and into water, the light is bent or refracted. This is a medium affect.
Wind is a medium affect. Wind is the movement of air: meaning one media allows movement because of another media. Both media are the same in this case, except the media have differences in temperatures. So we say hot air moves and cold air moves, without explaining why they move relative to each other in the first place. This is why we say: Medium affects are difficult to explain and ‘Silence is golden’.
Some might say hot air is less dense? What does this mean? How does a fast moving air particle become less dense? Good luck finding a video to explain this easily? Another Q question.
Now Jeff Benner explains something in Hebrew writing and grammar use of pronouns in writing
He writes in a community setting with both boys and girls say in a playground, the reference goes to the boys, rather than referencing the girls. This is a masculine precedence over feminine is a grammar and cultural rule of Hebrew.
A. T. Jones: “If we can know how the Spirit was manifested in Christ, we shall know what are these
characteristics; for He was filled with all the fulness of God. Can we know this of Christ?—Read this: “And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest
upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.” (Isa. 11:2).
ROB: This is correct. The Grand Medium, carries the fullness of Jesus into supports of God. Hence the term “He” refers to Jesus carried by the medium into believers of His Name.
A. T. Jones: “In the manifestation of the fulness of the Spirit in the church, He divides to
every man severally as He will; for “to one is given by the Spirit the word of
wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit,” etc. (1 Cor. 12:8).
ROB: “Same idea as explained before.
A. T. Jones: “The Lord’s expressed desire, therefore, is, that He “may give to you,” and that
you may have, the Spirit of God,—the very Spirit that Jesus had, and the very
Spirit by whom the Scriptures were given. O, He desires that you may have—yes,
that you may be filled with—the Holy Spirit!
ROB: A. T. Jones writes we are filled with Jesus character and this is carried by the Holy Spirit.
A. T. Jones: “At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in
you” (John 14:20).
At what day?—The day the Helper would come; the day that He Himself, by
the Helper, would come.
For He said, “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you;” and, “At that
day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”
Rob: If the Greek word used here is the Hebrew word for help-meet, than the word in Hebrew is masculine grammar case. This is the same word used in Genesis 2 when the help-meet was given to Adam. Pronouns such as “He” do not refer to the personality of the being, as we assume by reading the verses, based on grammar and gender case of words. The help-meet brought to Adam, was masculine in grammar, but was not a “he” but a “she” was brought to Adam. How do we make sense of this ?
Ge 2:24 Shall a man “look at the ploughed home” of his “provider” and “responder” and cleave to his
“look at the ploughed head” and they shall be cardinally one flesh.
Consider these clues as Ancient Hebrew shows above.
A. T. Jones: “Do you know this? Do you know that He is in His Father, and you in Him, and
He in you? If you do not know it, why do you not?—There can be but one reason for any
one’s not knowing this; that is, he has not received the Helper, which is the Holy Spirit. For “by this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit” (1 John 4:13).
ROB: Notice the “He” is of the Father. Nice
A. T. Jones: “Then when He has promised that we “will know,” and has abundantly and
freely supplied the means by which we shall know, that “we abide in Him, and He
in us,” why should any one go a single hour without that blessed knowledge?
“You will know.” “By this we know.” Blessed, blessed knowledge! Thank the Lord!
“Ask, and it will be given to you.” “Receive the Holy Spirit.”
The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 28, 1898
ROB: “Notice Jesus and the Father as compound unity because of faith. Jesus used the power from His Father via Faith in the Word. Love is therefore a community power based on faith.
The Opposer would have seen this function but through the exercise of free will, wanted to make Self and therefore Self-Love a supreme function of providing love. It such a concept existed, why does Jesus speak of two forms of love, and not three?
Mt 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as (thyself) (God loves you).
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets
Notice Jeff Benner says the Hebrew word “thyself” means “like” it is a comparison word.
But The Lord Jesus states two principles of love and being loved, not three. Therefore self-love is NOT a Hebrew principle( in a sinless domain). In our Bible there are only two Hebrew words for love, the child like love is a collective function of the first two.
The Holy Spirit is a Grand Medium, and mediums carry powers in a media unto those receiving the powers. Light is carried in the air and water, but changing from one media to another, the light is refracted at the boundary. Why this occurs, is difficult to fathom, another Q question. Wind is also the movement of air, where the media carries the energy of air we feel as wind. Why and how this energy is carried is difficult to explain.
It seems our pioneers were happy to use terms easily and they felt no confusion in using such terms. Yet Mrs White “some things are mysteries” and “silence is golden”.
A. T. Jones: “The only reason that the church in any age has not witnesses in that age to the
end of the earth, is simply because she did not have the power to do it. That is
what she existed for; but she could not do it, because she did not have the power.
(1888mpm.org 21 )
Rob: The church is written in feminine grammar case, I feel because the church is a responder to the love of God.
A. T. Jones “And she did not have the power because she would not have the Holy Spirit come
upon her.
ROB: Jones writes this sentence is interesting. Is there such a sentence in the Bible?
Ho 4:19 The wind (ruwach - Holy Spirit) hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices.
Jerusalem like the Church is feminine in grammar, but how can the wind have wings? Notice the ruwach is feminine in grammar and the “her wings” is a reference to the grammar case. It is the only Bible reference to the word ruwach with the grammar case “her”.
However this reference is used by Ellen White numerous times as “her wings”.
A. T. Jones “And when the Holy Spirit does come upon us, making us witnesses, then He
also Himself is a witness with us.
We are to witness to Jesus Christ risen from the dead, and alive now, though
once dead.
A. T. Jones “We can do it because we know Him, the living Savior, with whom we live. We
can do it because He lives with us. We can do it because we know that He is in us,
and we in Him; and this we know by the Holy Spirit, which is given us. We can do
it because He has given us the power, in giving us the Holy Spirit.
ROB: Notice how A. T. Jones writes.
A. T. Jones “When the Holy Spirit has placed you in the responsible position of overseers of
the flock of God, how are you discharging your responsibility to Him who “has
made you overseers”? Do you constantly recognize, and live in the presence of, the fact that the Holy Spirit has made you overseers? Do you constantly recognize your responsibility to
the Holy Spirit? Do you constantly seek to discharge that responsibility under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit, and acceptably to Him?
Rob: Confused?
A. T. Jones “Very well, then, brethren, elders of the churches, as the word of God says that
“the Holy Spirit has made you overseers,” do you recognize that fact? Do you
constantly live and work in the presence of that solemn and thrice-blessed fact?
Do you pray in the Holy Spirit? Do you recognize the Holy Spirit in . . . oversee
the flock with eyes anointed with the Holy Spirit? Do you “feed the church of
God, which He has purchased with His own blood”—do you feed the church with
the Bread which came down from heaven, through the power and presence of the
Holy Spirit?
ROB: “Be careful with the reading of “pronouns”
A. T. Jones “Thus the book of Acts begins and ends with the mention of the Holy Spirit;
and all the way between the beginning and the end, the Holy Spirit is recognized
and received. He is constantly deferred to; He is ever and everywhere recognized
as being present as witness, counselor, and guide.
Rob: Confused? Is this idea of Jones correct?
Ac 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
ROB: No it is not correct. The Holy Spirit after 40 days is carrying the power of GOD....
Ac 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
ROB: So Jones is not correct in what he is saying.
A. T. Jones “Ask for the Spirit: by so doing, you ask according to His will. Then, having
asked, you know you have received, because He says so. Then thank Him, and
continue to thank Him, that you have received the Holy Spirit. How you may feel
has nothing to do with it. It is not how you feel; it is what He says.
Rob: Since love is a community generated power, and “He” refers to the Provider of that love, does not mean there is no responder to love.
A. T. Jones “THERE is a difference between “the gift of the Holy Spirit” and “the gifts of
the Holy Spirit;” between the gift of the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit.
The gift of the Holy Spirit is the gift of His Spirit bestowed by the Lord upon
those who believe and are baptized in His name.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit are certain powers and operations imparted by the
Holy Spirit Himself to those who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
ROB: Confused? Does Ellen White write using sentences like this?
Apparently she does: once...
Ellen White: “One man cannot carry through any work and make it complete himself, unless no other worker is available; then the Holy Spirit supplies the deficiencies of the worker. But because a measure of success attends his labors, let him not suppose that it is his methods and capabilities which have done the work; for this idea will often bring defeat. Let not men flatter themselves and take to themselves the credit of doing wonderful things; for they are weak and feeble in doing even their best. The Holy Spirit is the worker, and if the human instrument is a close student of his Bible, seeking to know the light and to walk in it, thus learning daily of Jesus, the Holy Spirit will use him as a means of communicating the Word while the Holy Spirit Himself works the heart. {1NL 129.5}
All those who hold forth the Word of Life, whether they be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, or teachers, have a part to act in the work of the perfection of the saints, wherever they may be. They are all to work together harmoniously. {1NL 129.6} [Read Ephesians 4:12-16
ROB: What is the passage saying? Does it mean the Holy Spirit is a He?
A. T. Jones seems to think so?
I am not sure what to make of the passage? It seems to suggest the Holy Spirit as a function in some rare cases, can be provider of power to the human, assuming this context suggests this idea?
This does not mean the “he” means the Holy Spirit is a “he” is assumed by the modern times in our Church. What does the term “he” mean anyway, is not discussed or defined by our Church.
Can gender females be providers of love? Of course they can, also gender males can respond to love. The point is gender females are mostly responders of love and gender males are mostly providers of love. Remember what Ellen White said of the nature of the Holy Spirit, “silence is golden”?
A. T. Jones “Plainly enough, the gifts of the Holy Spirit can be manifested only in those
who have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
All the gifts of the Spirit—wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles,
prophecy, teaching, discerning of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues, helps,
governments—belong in the church now.
The Lord longs to see all these gifts and powers manifested in the church now.
Many people, also, long to see all these gifts manifested in the church now: some,
indeed, desire this more out of curiosity, or to benefit themselves, than for
anything else; yet they do desire to see it.
But how can there be manifestations of the Spirit where there is not the Spirit?
How can the gifts of the Spirit be imparted, where the gift of the Spirit has not
been allowed to be bestowed? How can the gifts of the Holy Spirit be manifested
where the gift of the Holy Spirit has not been received?
A. T. Jones “The Holy Spirit is never poured out on companies, except as He is poured out
upon individuals in the companies.
The Spirit was poured out upon the whole company, more than once, as
recorded in the book of Acts; but this was only because He was poured out upon
each individual in the company. Each individual was ready to receive the Spirit;
and being poured in His fullness upon each individual in the company, in the
nature of the case He was poured out upon the whole company.
ROB: Question: When the Holy Spirit power was poured out in Acts, for example; was this just the power of the Holy Spirit only ?
Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
ROB: “Notice the men in this experience, did not speak of this power coming from the Holy Spirit alone, but from the Lord, and from Elohiym power. So sadly A. T. Jones is not stating things as nicely as he could.
A.T.Jones: “For the Holy Spirit is given, imparting His precious gifts, expressly “for the
equipping of the saints, . . . till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the
knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of
the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:12, 13).
A.T.Jones: “AND do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the
day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). When anything is sealed, it is made secure; and
God by His Holy Spirit is now sealing hearts for eternity. Will you let the Holy
Spirit do His work in you? Let him, let him! The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, December 20, 1898, p. 817.
ROB: Confusing?
A.T. Jones: “He also indicates what is the character of this unity: “As You, Father, are in Me,
and I in You, that they also may be one in Us;” “that they may be one, just as We
are one: I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one.” This
unity of the believers is the divine unity itself; for it is just “as” is the unity between
the divine Father and the divine Son.
ROB: So this might explain the “He”. Does the Church explain what “He” actually means?
A.T. Jones: “OF the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is
Mine and declare it to you” (John 16:14).
To declare a thing is to call special attention to it, to point out its attractions
and its value.
This is what the Holy Spirit does to us with the things of God. He takes the
things of God, and presents them to our view, makes them plain to our
understanding.
ROB: Notice the “He” is a reference to the community power of GOD, in this context.
==== OK dear readers ==========
Now let’s look at other themes and other ideas of this confusion:
Alonzo T Jones, The Medical Missionary, March 27, 1907: “And the Holy Spirit is a person. ....the Holy Spirit is referred to and spoken of by Christians as “it”. But the word “it” never applies to a person.
The Holy Spirit is a Person, eternally a divine Person. And he must be always recognized and spoken of as a Person, or he is not truly recognized or spoken of at all.”
ROB: This is confusing?
Ellen White: “The Holy Spirit always leads to the written word. The Holy Spirit is a person; for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God. What strong evidence of the power of truth we can give to believers and unbelievers when we can voice the words of John, “We have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.” {20MR 68.5}
The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man, which is in him; even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {20MR 69.1}
Rob: Notice the message of Ellen White from GOD, also makes the “ruwach” come with a “he” whatever that means...
Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}
The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God.... {Ev 616.6}
The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}
The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}
In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}
The work of the holy Spirit is immeasurably great. It is from this source that power and efficiency come to the worker for God; and the holy Spirit is the comforter, as the personal presence of Christ to the soul. He who looks to Christ in simple, childlike faith, is made a partaker of the divine nature through the agency of the holy Spirit. When led by the Spirit of God, the Christian may know that he is made complete in him who is the head of all things. As Christ was glorified on the day of Pentecost, so will he again be glorified in the closing work of the gospel, when he shall prepare a people to stand the final test, in the closing conflict of the great controversy. The prophet describes the enemy’s plan of battle saying: {RH November 29, 1892, par. 3
ROB” So if the Holy Spirit brings Jesus to us, this is why we see the Holy Spirit as a “He”, the “he” refers to Christ and His power.
Pastor Charles Mills from his Facebook with His Vine Free SDA church only quotes pioneers and Ellen White, and does not write his own applications of his own faith, except once:-
Pastor Charles Mills: "God Identifies Who Is the Spirit of Prophecy: Ellen White was not the Spirit of Prophecy but was used By the Spirit of Prophecy to reveal God's Testimonies to
the Church as HIS mouthpiece, messenger and prophet !
ROB: Of the only personal words penned by Pastor Mills, he does not even write Ellen White as a prophetess. Are we afraid to witness to Jesus with His faith developing new words in us?
Now to show readers how messages from Ellen White given to by GOD show passages on the nature of the Holy Spirit...
Ellen White: “The words spoken by Christ of Jerusalem are, “Your house is left unto you desolate.” What anguish of soul did Jesus feel when all his appeals, his warnings and reproofs, were resisted! At the time he brought them home to the soul, impressions were made; but self-love, self-sufficiency, love of the world, came in and choked the good seed sown. Pride of heart prevented his hearers from humbling themselves before God, and confessing their sin in resisting his Holy Spirit, and reluctantly it left them. On the crest of Olivet, as he beheld the city, he wept over it, saying, “If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!” Here he paused; he was loth to utter the irrevocable sentence. O that Jerusalem would repent! When the fast westering sun should pass out of sight, her day of mercy would be ended. Jesus closed his sentence, “But now they are hid from thine eyes.” On another occasion he lamented the impenitence of the chosen city: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate...{RH December 23, 1890, Art. B, par. 12}
God keeps a reckoning with the nations.... In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full.... The Spirit of God is being withdrawn from the earth. When the angel of mercy folds her wings and departs, Satan will do the evil deeds he has long wished to do. Storm and tempest, war and bloodshed—in these things he delights, and thus he gathers in his harvest. And so completely will men be deceived by him that they will declare that these calamities are the result of the desecration of the first day of the week. From the pulpits of the popular churches will be heard the statement that the world is being punished because Sunday is not honored as it should be.... {TMK 355.2}
ROB: “Is this a parallel message in Ellen White messages?
Ellen White: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” The Lord forbid that this scene should now be repeated in the experience of God’s professed people! “My Spirit,” he says, “shall not always strive with man.” The time will come when it must be said of the impenitent, “Ephraim is joined to his idols; let him alone.” {RH December 23, 1890, Art. B, par. 12
ROB: “Is this a parallel message in Ellen White messages?
Ellen White: “I have been shown that the time has come for more effective labor in the East. The necessity of organization and order is at last felt there. Ministers will not now be obliged to labor under such discouragements as before. The angel of mercy is hovering over the East. Said the angel: “Strengthen the things that remain. Proclaim the message to those who have not heard it.” There are some in the East who will be in danger of going to extremes when the Lord shall revive His work among them. They should remember that the Lord removed His work from them to the West to humble them, and to subdue an independent, rebellious spirit in them, and lead them to better prize the efforts of His faithful servants.
Rob: The word “hovering” is used only twice in Scripture to refer to the Spirit.
ROB: “Do angels have wings, and do they hover like a bird? Or is this the Holy Spirit functioning like an angel with her wings?
Ellen White: “Brethren, work with the Spirit of Christ, with the mind of Christ, to correct existing evils. The wrongdoer will have the sympathy of wrongdoers, but faithful shepherds of the flock must maintain an elevated standard, and yet teach that the Star of hope is still shining. Work on patiently, but rebuke sin firmly, giving it no sanction. The world is soon to be left by the angel of mercy, and the seven last plagues are to be poured out. Sin, shame, sorrow, and darkness are on every side.
And the messages of the Shadday, translated Almighty:-
A terrible conflict is before us. We are nearing the battle of the great day of God Almighty. That which has been held in control is to be let loose. The angel of mercy is folding her wings, preparing to step down from the throne and leave the world to the control of Satan.
ROB: “Is this a parallel message in Ellen White messages?
Who are standing as representatives of Jesus Christ? Who feels a burden for the souls who cannot receive the truth till it is brought to them? Our ministers are hovering over the churches, as though the angel of mercy was not making efforts to save souls. {PaM 99.3
ROB: Don’t you love the poetry similes that hide truth from doubters of the messages of GOD? As the Holy Spirit is a representative of Jesus Christ empowering us with “HIS” power, so our Pastors are representatives of Jesus Christ, empowering the sheep with “HIS” power. Does the reader catch the parallels?
So this “phrase” the “angel of mercy” is the function of the Holy Spirit.
Ellen White: “The angel of mercy had long pleaded for the impenitent city; but now she prepared to step down from the golden throne, while the words of irrevocable justice were spoken: “But now they are hid from thine eyes.
Now we have a problem, how can the Holy Spirit be referenced as a “he” and now also referenced as a “she” ? In the references as a “he” the Holy Spirit is a “provider of Jesus and his power to us” and in the reference of the Holy Spirit as a “she”, the Holy Spirit is a responder of love that comes from GOD.
Ellen White: “As the approach of the Roman armies was a sign to the disciples of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, so may this apostasy be a sign to us that the limit of God’s forbearance is reached, that the measure of our nation’s iniquity is full, and that the angel of mercy is about to take her flight, never to return. The people of God will then be plunged into those scenes of affliction and distress which prophets have described as the time of Jacob’s trouble. The cries of the faithful, persecuted ones ascend to heaven. And as the blood of Abel cried from the ground, there are voices also crying to God from martyrs’ graves, from the sepulchers of the sea, from mountain caverns, from convent vaults: “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” {5T 451.2}
ROB: Difficult to fathom, but we have clues to this puzzle
Jer 49:36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.
Da 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
Zec 2:6 ¶ Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Re 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree
ROB: The Greek uses ordinary word for winds, not the pneumia, as the Hebrew word does with ruwach. Fuzzy translation, we miss much.
Ellen White: “Grace, like an angel of mercy, makes his voice heard sweet and clear, repeating the story of the cross, the matchless love of Jesus.61 {ML 334.5
ROB: Notice while the angel of mercy is written as “her wings” here is it suggested to be “his voice”.... is the reader confused?
Ellen White:"A terrible contest is before us. We are nearing the battle of the great day of God Almighty. That which has been held in control is to be let loose. The angel of mercy is folding its wings, preparing to step down from the golden throne and leave the world to the control of Satan, the king it has chosen, a murderer and a destroyer from the beginning. {TDG 308.2
ROB: Notice while the angel of mercy is written as “her wings” here is it suggested to be “it’s wings”.... is the reader confused?
Ellen White: “I saw that the angel of mercy was winging his way from R. I was shown that the rebellion started there. God marked the families engaged in this work, and they did not all make a thorough confession of their sins and put them away as they should have done. {PH104 1.2
ROB: In a community function the Holy Spirit wings her wings with his way, a reference to the power of the Most High, is the only way to fathom the confusion. After all the Holy Spirit functions as a medium, a function that carries power from one place to another place.
The same applies to “it’s wings” a functional description of power.
Ellen White: “Do not become weary in your labor of love. The angel of mercy pauses not in his efforts till the last sinner has heard the message of grace. Tenderly and untiringly work for your little ones. Think of how young they are, how much they have to learn. Deal gently and lovingly with them. Consider how slow you have been to learn your lessons. Be calm, patient, and tender. By the cords of unselfish love bind them to you and to Christ. {20MR 277.1
ROB summary: The message of Ellen White from God writes the Holy Spirit as a “messenger of mercy” or “angel of mercy” with sometimes “her wings” “his way”, it’s wings and often as “his efforts”.
(1) This can be a medium affect, where the medium carries the Father’s power and the Son’s power, so the “He” refers to provider powers carried by the medium of God.
(2) This can also be in rare cases where the Shadday is functioning as a provider within the function of the Holy Spirit.
Since the function of the agent and medium, words Ellen White used are poorly understood by readers, she cautions us to remember “silence is golden” about these mysteries.
Now is this a major obstacle to understanding our salvation? Hmm? If the only sense of love we have coming from God is provider love so that we understand the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit as a “he”, than our love and loving personalities are severely limited. And we will as a Church not be as one accord with fellowship love, nurture love, or the responding love that is expressed mostly by responders. We also miss the full understanding of love within the family of God. Shalom